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| Evan Bourne is a master seller. Just ask CM Punk, who looked like a million bucks after Bourne sold this like death. Photo Credit: WWE.com |
So, if you have a guy who has his leg worked over for a considerable portion of a wrestling match, and minutes later, all that leg work is forgotten, why would you consider the leg work done earlier to be important? Offense is only as effective as the guy selling it makes it. That's why above anything else, selling is the most important part of any wrestling match. It doesn't matter if a guy has stiff-looking punches or a great moveset or anything else that people may consider part of good wrestling. If the guy taking those moves isn't acting like they hurt, then it makes the guy doing them look like a chump, not a Champ.
That's why it maddens me so much when people prop up guys who don't sell and rather who engage in the self-celebratory style of just trading moves and engaging in excessive displays of Fighting Spirit. Whenever I see a match featuring Shingo Tagaki or Davey Richards, and all they do is kick the other guy, take kicks and move around like nothing's wrong, it only reinforces that vile, four-lettered "f" word that haters of the artform bandy about like a sharp blade around the soft flesh of our fandom.
Fake.
I can watch Ares and UltraMantis Black fight over a relic that has purported powers of hypnosis and not be offended because hey, wrestling's theater and theater can be absurd at times. I can be unaffected by some of the most absurd angles that the WWE or even TNA run and still defend the artform as "staged" rather than that vile f-word. I will put my balls on the line as a wrestling fan and defend nearly anything. But when you have gratuitous displays of guys just doing MOVEZ to each other with no regard to feigning to the crowd that those moves actually hurt and have lingering effects past the initial sting? I can't deal with it. I tap out to the haters, because there's nothing I can say that defends that kind of asinine lack of attention to storytelling.
And as fake as guys popping up after brutal head drops makes the product look, guys selling the shit out of moves makes it look all that much better. Take Evan Bourne for example. The guy is beloved by the WWE fanbase because he flies through the air with the greatest of ease. However, his value with the company, something that makes him the go-to guy for getting people over as beasts, is in his selling. The guy takes the High Cross from Sheamus like he just dropped on a landmine. On a bum shoulder, he took bumps that most other guys would scoff at healthy to put CM Punk over like a stone cold killer. Because of all that, he's one of the best workers on the roster and he makes the product look visceral, look real. You want a reason why I would watch and enjoy Bourne getting squashed by The Miz over a 20 minute AWESOMESAUCE EPIC MATCH WITH MOVEZ between Shingo and Richards, you want a reason why I get goosebumps watching Bourne get tossed around by Sheamus, you want a reason why Bourne in even his simplest affairs makes me forget that the product is staged just for one second? It's in the way he sells.
If you look at all the guys, all the people who drove business, they took beatings and made guys they were wrestling look like world-beaters. Hulk Hogan had the Hulk-Up, but what most people will never admit is he would always spend a solid five to ten minutes BEFORE Hulking Up taking a brutal asskicking from the heel he was working with at the time. Steve Austin and Rock bumped their asses off. Shawn Michaels' career almost came to a screeching halt in 1998 because of his dedication to bumping and selling. Ric Flair was so believable taking a beatdown that his begging off has become a signature spot in wrestling history. All of those guys are considered all-timers. None of them engaged in the nonsense of move trading with no sense of taking damage. Coincidence? I think not.
If you act like you're hurt, you're doing more for yourself than you could think of by busting out every move in the book, ESPECIALLY if you're booked to win in a comeback. No-selling has its place, and that place is SPARING if appropriate at all. But acting hurt? That goes for any situation. Selling really is the most important part of any match, and if anyone tells you otherwise, they're a liar or a super mark for moves for the sake of moves. It's as simple as that. The moment wrestling loses selling is the moment wrestling loses its relevance, at least in a way that makes it compete for the combat sports PPV dollar and TV show viewer. It'll be there for the workrate dorks and for people who like superhero stories but without any of the other cool powers. But it won't be for wrestling fans, because it'll just make things, really, really boring.
Remember you can contact TH and ask him questions about wrestling, life or anything else. Please refer to this post for contact information. He always takes questions!
i thought morrison was doing a brilliant job selling the leg at EC...till he jumped on the side of the cage near the end. sigh...
ReplyDeleteI'll share a story from my days in OVW. We had a guy named Bryan Cash working as a heel, and during the match, it appeared as if he injured his knee. Throughout the rest of the match, Bryan would not put any weight on that knee whatsoever. When the babyface was getting in his comeback, the babyface went to whip Bryan to the opposite turnbuckle. Bryan took one step, and once he put any weight on that bad leg, he just crumpled to the mat clutching his knee in pain.
ReplyDeleteAll of us in the back were watching the match, even Danny Davis, and we ALL thought he had torn an ACL, or had injured his knee in some fashion. Bryan lost the match, and when he came back to the dressing room, Danny hollered over to him and asked if he was alright. Bryan just smiled and said yea. He was walking normally. We all laughed cause we'd been worked pretty good.
Bryan said he knew that it looked like he injured his knee and he let that play into the match. And he played it to a tee cause even all us boys in the back were thinking the worst, and the crowd believed it too and it added so much more to the match. And this was a HEEL who LOST the match. Not to mention the fact, we're talking about a guy who at the time was a pro for less than a year and already had that kind of mentality.
Anyways, wanted to share that, as your post reminded me of it, and I thought would help reinforce your post about the importance of selling, not only for babyfaces either.
I disagree so very, very hard. Watching gratutitous selling throws me out of the experience like nothing else, wheras watching someone like Richards no sell the living hell out of everything has made for some of the most realistic and envigorating matches I have ever witnessed.
ReplyDeleteRemember: These men are meant to be athletes. They may be relatable, but they're not everyday people. They might be eccentric, but they're not cartoon characters. Some will even come across as demigods, but that is not to say that they're invulnerable hides can only be bruised by another superhumans Herculean strength. I find joy in viewing wrestlers as world-class athletes, and athletes no-sell like...what's the swearing policy here?
Eddie Edwards has gone into matches with broken bones, and shrugged them off. Kurt Angle won a gold medal without having to constantly rub his broken freakin' neck. And as for MMA? I've seen guys get german suplexed onto their neck, only to roll through, stand up, and start throwing punches again in a split-second. Selling is an amateur dramatics performance, used to relate stories: I can dig that. But it makes for matches that can only be enjoyed as stories, not as legitimate contests.
That - I am convinced - is why people call Davey Richards the Best in the World. His act makes for the most realistic perfomances I have personally ever seen. It's what I'd expect from the greatest on the planet: someone so badass they they are willing to push physical pain to the back of their mind and keep on fighting. Never showing weakness. Always going all out. Take his Final Battle match with Roddy: it told a sublime story not just despite, but through noselling; BIG MOVEZ and all. You might condescendingly call it "fighting spirit", but I call it beleivable.
Meanwhile, in WWEland: "Oh look. John Morrison is hopping and moaning. I think that his leg might be hurt. I should feel bad for him." :/
I always try to sell my opponents offense well, simply because if I don't, then why was I letting him kick me around at all?
ReplyDeleteBoxers get more wobbly kneed as the matches go along. If a MMA fighter takes too many bumps on the neck, they're not going to last very long in a match. Football players take time getting up from big tackles more often than not.
ReplyDeleteBeing an athlete means you don't get gassed playing long periods of time. Being an athlete doesn't mean that you take blows meant to damage in stride like they mean nothing.
Also, re: Eddie Edwards, I'm sure that he doesn't go into matches injured trying to work by directly exposing his injuries, so no, that analogy doesn't work.
ReplyDeleteHow can we expect wrestling to be realistic when it clearly isn't?
ReplyDeleteI agree wholeheartedly with this. One of the reasons I don't get into indie wrestling in general is that the matches look like a collection of movez that obviously don't really hurt if you immediately come back from them. A lot of the X-division stuff in TNA has this problem, too.
ReplyDeleteSay what you want about WWE "main event style", but for the most part dramatic selling isn't the problem.
I'm with you 100% TH. I hate the MOVEZ indy style with a passion
ReplyDelete"Boxers get more wobbly kneed as the matches go along. If a MMA fighter takes too many bumps on the neck, they're not going to last very long in a match. Football players take time getting up from big tackles more often than not.
ReplyDeleteBeing an athlete means you don't get gassed playing long periods of time. Being an athlete doesn't mean that you take blows meant to damage in stride like they mean nothing."
I'm not even sure what you are trying to argue with this point here. Those are real sports and the fatigue and injuries shown by the athletes are real. Sure real fatigue and real injuries occur in wrestling all the time but the fact is the competition in wrestling isn't real, the contact and combat isn't real so it makes no sense to assess it this way.
Suspending disbelief to allow 2 guys to trade back and forth bare-knuckled blows to the face (while the crowd cheers boo/yeah) is absolutely no different then suspending disbelief and allowing guys to have moments of "fighting spirit" where they shrug of moves and have huge comebacks. Your argument that indie wrestling or "movez" based wrestling doesn't present the product as "real" and makes critics call it fake, but a WWE match would have the critics believing what they are seeing is absolutely preposterous.
The fact is times have changed and MMA now exists in the mainstream and people have an idea of what happens when two guys actually fight each other. So no matter how much John Morrison sells his injured knee no one is truly buying it (people may buy into it in the context of the match and pro-wrestling, but not in real life) because seconds later he might receive a stompdown or a blantant punch to the face and not get knocked unconscious. We know what happens when guys really stomp on each others faces, watch PRIDE FC. We know what a clear punch to the head will do, usually knock you out.
So why is selling a knee injury considered doing something "real" but not selling the amount of blows to the head or face not fake or no selling?
What it comes down to is style. In almost all forms of pro-wrestling there is selling and no-selling and realistic and totally outlandish maneuvers. What you accept is based on what style you like. You obviously prefer WWE style, but that doesn't make All-Japan pro-wrestling style inferior or "faker" pro-wrestling because they no-sell different moves. In Japan they don't allow closed fists and will sell a punch like it meant something. But sometimes they will no-sell a brainbuster. In WWE they may sell a stomp or a bodyslam for a long time, but another time they won't sell back and forth punches or multiple shoulder blocks (i.e. popping back up to take another).
To take it even further, probably 50% of wrestling moves could not be executed without mutual cooperation from both parties (obviously).
continued...
There is still a lot of valid entertainment in the style of matches both or all the companies are doing, but its based on what you like and want from a wrestling match.
ReplyDeleteSome people want fast paced, super athletic action and others like slow paced, storytelling. (I truly feel that wrestling can have both of these and can name lots of matches in WWE and ROH or Dragon Gate or whatever that have both) But none of them are portraying combat as much more "real" than the other. So choosing what to sell doesn't really have a set rule. Different selling can connect with different types of fans, but none makes wrestling look more or less fake really, because most of us have a reference point for what real fights look like now. (I'm leaving "shoot" style out of this whole debate because that will open up another can of worms)
Basically for me the problem is in your argument. If you had said "I like WWE because I like prolonged drawn out selling of stomps and punches and I don't like when people no-sell" I would have no issue. But to imply that "haters" will look to Davey vs Shingo and go "wow so fake" but look at Orton vs Cena and say "wow so convincing" is asinine to me.
For example Chikara, a promotion you are a geniune fan of, for my money is perhaps at times the most "movez" based and "fake" pro-wrestling I have ever seen. But I don't feel a need to tear it down or imply that it is ruining wrestling because I see it as simply a different style run by a different company. All wrestling is pre-determined and entertainment. It is not a real athletic competition so how each company and fan wants to interpret pro-wrestling is sort of up to them, especially now that everyone knows what a real fight looks like and wrestling doesn't hide the fact that it is entertainment.
Also I am a pro-wrestling fan. This is by no way an anti-wrestling comment about how fake it is. I just think it is silly implying that a certain style is making wrestling seem faker than another style that could be blamed for exactly the same thing but based on different criteria.
Whew, sorry about the length but I was fired up.
Chikara has a really, really good amount of selling that goes on, actually.
ReplyDeleteThe Chikara comment wasn't related to selling, its related to wrestling believability as a whole which you brought up when you threw around the word "fake". Just because they sell doesn't lend anymore credibility to the overly choreographed moves they do to each other and those moves could just as well make "haters" cry "fake". You see what I mean? For the record I've seen Chikara and enjoy their style. Its not a quality argument I'm making, its this importance you are placing on "selling" while overlooking so many other aspects of what makes pro-wrestling seem fake to haters.
ReplyDeleteYeah, and I gave reasons why I feel like anything else they may do or most anything other wrestling companies do can be defended. If someone thinks that the Eye of Tyr is fake, that's on them, but I won't back down from defending it. To me, the no-selling is exactly what makes wrestling feel fake to me.
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure why I'm continuing to engage in this but...
ReplyDeleteokay lets look at the line where you say that:
"I can watch Ares and UltraMantis Black fight over a relic that has purported powers of hypnosis and not be offended because hey, wrestling's theater and theater can be absurd at times. I can be unaffected by some of the most absurd angles that the WWE or even TNA run and still defend the artform as "staged" rather than that vile f-word. I will put my balls on the line as a wrestling fan and defend nearly anything. But when you have gratuitous displays of guys just doing MOVEZ to each other with no regard to feigning to the crowd that those moves actually hurt and have lingering effects past the initial sting? I can't deal with it"
You basically argue against yourself in this. If wrestling is absurd theater than why can't "no-selling" be part of the absurd performance to enhance a moment where a guy feels no-pain or has a spectacular combo he wants to hit. If it is theater and a staged fight why can't we see some spectacular unbelievable sequences?
Why to you do the rules of reality and logic apply to the combat (which as I've pointed out they don't anyways) but the logic doesn't have to apply to the reality the wrestlers perform in i.e. Magic exists in Chikara (or whatever that orb is you are talking about) and in WWE we can see inside Stephanie McMahon's night-terrors?
Hey man, if a company was presenting itself to me as a very serious, real deal sport (like in Japan) and then presented me with what I interpreted as believable matches I'm all for it. Thats the style I like. But what you are defending are companies that don't do that, and then panning other matches or wrestlers that also don't do that. Doesn't make sense.
Because if you hit someone, it should hurt, that's why. You're telling me that because I would defend the Eye of Tyr angle, in a comedically-tinged fed like Chikara, I have to defend Davey Richards shitting up the ring in a fed where it's supposed to be based more in sport? No, I don't buy that.
ReplyDeleteIf Chikara were Kaiju Big Battel, maybe I throw my preconceived notions about selling out the window, but it's not. It has a serious in-ring product, even with acts that have comedic moves like the Osirian Portal. It presents itself as having good wrestling, so that's what I expect.
And good wrestling, no matter if it's WWE, EVOLVE, Chikara, NJPW, CMLL or even TNA (theoretically), asks you to assume that everyone on the roster is on somewhat of a similar plane to each other. Not exactly the same, because that would be stupid to believe that Gillberg has a 50/50 chance to beat the Undertaker, but if I take one guy and put him against the other, I reasonably assume that he's going to be able to do damage. If not, then what's the point of having wrestling? Just to have a bunch of guys do choreographed routines? If I wanted that, I'd go see Cirque de Soliel.
That's why I can believe in all the absurd shit that happens out of the ring, whether it's well done like the Eye of Tyr or not well done like Stephanie McMahon's lucid dream about her father, and hate with a passion guys who don't sell on a regular basis.
How do your rules of selling apply to ajpw? Were Kobashi, Misawa and Kawada shitting up the ring too?
ReplyDeleteAlso your posts make it seem like davey doesn't even register moves. He does sell he just doesn't sell in the over the top wwe style. It's not like he reacts to every move like hawk getting piledriven.
There's a high degree of "to me" involved here that deserves some attention.
ReplyDeleteThe “magic” doesn’t happen for every fan for the same reasons and I think it’s a mistake to put forth that it should. That’s not to say that a series of articles discussing the analysis of matches isn’t a good thing, but your own biases show pretty hard in them already in that you have a very strong position about selling evidenced in this one and in your first on workrate, you pretty much defined it and then blew it off as largely insignificant.
Well, to some of us who you might call “workrate dorks” it’s not. The magic happens for me when I forget it’s staged. And part of that, for me, is workrate, that moves come at a pace, precision and intensity level (note: not sloppy) that I don’t have time to process that what I’m seeing isn’t really violence. I’m too busy going “OMG!” So I also don’t have time to register how deeply those moves are sold until the inevitable tipping point where the “big one” lands and ends the chain. And then, yeah, someone better sell it and do it well.
But here’s where I think you’re way too hard on Davey Richards. Cuz yeah, I watched the Champions vs. All-Stars match in person in Richmond last month and it was beautiful on all counts TO ME, including internal and external conflict, and a story that arced along that night and pulled in the threads of things going on among all the guys in the ring over the past couple months really well. Richards sold and was as true to that story as the rest of the guys. He wasn’t in melodramatic agony with every blow, nor should he have been. His brisk, high intensity exchange with Christopher Daniels was beautiful and ended up with a couple of well sold moments that brought the pace down from both. But like the Briscoes spring to mind. They don’t sell getting knocked around until it “counts.” And why should they? They’re presented as a couple of tough (crazy) redneck dudes whose catchphrase is “Man Up!” Should these guys be really selling anything less than being spiked by Claudio Castagnoli onto chair?
My point is that yes, selling is important, but selling appropriately, not just often and with as much drama as possible. In fact, I think it’s a bad idea to sell a move that was poorly delivered. And rolling around on the floor in agony over a hip toss will throw me out of the groove as much as blinking at someone’s finisher. Selling the move that matters most, at the right time, when it’s delivered perfectly, when it fits the story the match is telling is magic. Davey Richards doesn’t do it the same way Evan Bourne does it. You’re not obliged to like how someone does it any more than I am. But don’t try and set a standard that states that my end of the spectrum doesn’t exist.
Over the next couple of weeks or so, I'll go into several different aspects and tell you what's important and what's not important in looking for a good match or a good wrestler. Well, I'll tell you what I think is important. It might not win you over in how you analyze matches, but maybe it'll give you an appreciation for what I look for. At least that's what I hope.
ReplyDeleteThat was from the first week. Disagree with me, fine, but don't accuse me of trying to force a viewpoint down anyone's throats, please.
A couple points I want to make here:
ReplyDeleteOn Davey Richards: I gotta agree with those who defend him, to some extent. I think the reason that you rag on Richards so much is because you seem to not quite understand his character. In a vacuum, yeah, his selling is atrocious when compared to someone like Evan Bourne (who's so good it's actually detrimental to his career prospects. Imagine this: Evan Bourne, JTTS for life! Horrible thought...). But, in fact, I actually see his no-selling and partial selling as integral to his character. Richards' character is that of a guy who has had quite a hard luck life. Grandfather died on the day of his first pro wrestling related triumph, parents were never there, went to quit wrestling for his wife, who then left him. By his own admission, kayfabe or not, wrestling and his passion for it was the motor that kept him going. When you have such loss and grief, along with such passion for something that has kept and shepherded you through those losses, you tend to get emotionally numb, and have tunnel vision focused on that subject that has kept you. So him being dropped on his head multiple times and coming back like Nemesis isn't bad wrestling, but a piece of his character that would be incomplete without it.
Davey USED to suck. Five years ago. He was everything you suspect him of being in this post and so much more. I watched some of his debut ROH matches and the critiques of those matches. Atrocious. Unwatchable shit. Random "FIGHTING SPIRIT" spots and a moveset straight out of Fire Pro with absolutely no concept of how to use them. He had nice moves, but that's all he had: nice moves. He was a CAW, essentially. Nowadays, that's much different.
Watch his matches with Tyler Black (DBD VIII and HDNet 10/18/10) and Roderick Strong (Final Battle 2010) (And if you're talking about indie darlings who have no concept of selling a move, given or taken, THIS is the guy to talk about. My god, Strong annoys me...). Davey's continuum of selling and no selling carries both of those matches. He sells quite decently in those matches. He'll never be Shawn Michaels in that regard, but his character doesn't call for it. He's the quintessential never say die, hardnosed babyface that goes down to nothing short of death. Do you think that gimmick would go over so well, or that those matches would be just as good if he were an all-time seller? Maybe, maybe not. But those matches are uniquely good precisely because they play upon that aspect of Davey's character.
In this case, I would say that you're being a bit short sighted. Lighten up. Take a step back and take in the whole picture before criticizing these people so hard.
Continued...
On selling and no selling in general: This is not to say that you are really wrong here either. I LOVE me a good sell job. The Brian Cage story in the comments almost made me cry in appreciation. My favorite match of 2011 involved a guy selling knee damage that had ceased being pertinent to the match 10 minutes before the final bell rang (it was Satoshi Kojima vs. Hiroshi Tanahashi at WrestleKingdom V, for those who think that the Japanese don't sell).
ReplyDeleteYet the timing of a no-sell can make or break a match. Someone overcoming the pain and blunt force trauma for a few seconds to hit a big move can make a good match become great, or a great match become incredible. Kobashi made his early career on this. Part of the reason I loke puro so much is because of the no-sell game: Who goes down to a strike or suplex first? Who desires it more? It's just that indy guys with no concept of this have made the no sell into a mere commodity rather than a meaningful element of a match, so much so that there has been a major (not undeserved) backlash.
I believe, whether you write it or not, that there needs to be a section on the lost art of no-selling here. It is a tool to be used sparingly, but it can make or break a match more quickly and more effectively than a slip in a selljob. Be Bryan Danielson or Shawn Michaels, or be Roderick Strong or Petey Williams (or any number of mediocre X division wannabes, it's early. If you wanna do big men, substitute in any number of stiffs). BOTH selling and no selling go into this.
"Selling really is the most important part of any match, and if anyone tells you otherwise, they're a liar or a super mark for moves for the sake of moves."
ReplyDeleteThis sounds a lot like trying to force a viewpoint down peoples' throats. Look, I'm not trying to be hostile for hostility's sake. But I'm trying to point out the continuum of tastes among fans because I'm clearly not in the majority on a few things and am making some effort to qualify some things I say as opinion (and explain why I hold that opinion) instead of posing them as fact, for that reason.
Like my hate for Jerry Lawler after a bad day that caught so much backlash really just needed to be qualified with "Look guys, he's too old to go at a pace that will keep me interested in his matches, and nostalgia doesn't hold up for more than maybe one appearance for me." I'll put my biases out there, and you can mock them, or accept them, but you won't have to think I'm insane for arguing them as fact. :p
A lot of intarwebz nerd rage could be avoided if we can make this distinction a litle more clearly, I suspect. And I can totally respect other's opinions. I won't take away everyone's joy at the Rock's reappearance, just don't take away my mute button and the ability to buy the DVD of that ROH show in Richmond (sold, ironically, with the Best of the American Wolves).
Hmm, this also intrigues me:
ReplyDelete"Davey USED to suck. Five years ago. He was everything you suspect him of being in this post and so much more. I watched some of his debut ROH matches and the critiques of those matches. Atrocious. Unwatchable shit. Random "FIGHTING SPIRIT" spots and a moveset straight out of Fire Pro with absolutely no concept of how to use them. He had nice moves, but that's all he had: nice moves. He was a CAW, essentially. Nowadays, that's much different."
I admit to being an ROH-fan-come-lately. If TH wrote Richards off years ago and hasn't given him a good view since, while I've been enjoying the new and improved version that could account for for some disparate views. And I fully admit to doing that, writing guys off who fail to make the magic for me. perhaps a study of the "best of the American Wolves" DVD is in order when I get it.
Although, truth be told, I'm pretty patient with younger guys. I expect them to be working on it still.
Oh please. It's called writing for effect. I'm sorry if you feel like I'm being a dictator, but that's how I write, and I'm not changing the style. If you like guys hitting each other with no effect, that's great, I don't think any less of you. But I'm writing about something I feel pretty strongly about, so of course I'm not going to be wishy-washy about it.
ReplyDelete*groan*
Man there is actually good discussion going on in these comments about selling and people are asking you legitimate questions pertaining to your post, but instead of answering them you simply pull out one point from their well written posts and speak to that..or worse write
ReplyDelete"groan"
You can't act like you are being attacked when you wrote that people who didn't have the same opionion as you when it came to selling are either "liars" or "supermarks".
You want me to continue discussion on my own blog? Then don't take the discussion down the road of "STOP FORCING OPINIONS DOWN MY THROAT" when a) no one is forcing anyone to read this and b) I pointed out and explained myself that anything that is overly forceful is there for effect.
ReplyDeleteI'm allowed to groan at bad comments. If you don't like it, then I'm sorry, but it's something you're going to have to deal with.
Just to come in and try to bring this back to something better.
ReplyDelete1 - The notion that I'm hating on DR for something I saw 5 years ago, when I was watching spot WWE shows at the very most 5 years ago, is laughable. My beef with him is in the here and now, every time I see him on ROH on HDNet or on a DVD I pop in. Recent examples include his matches with Kota Ibushi at EVOLVE 1 and Kenny Omega at PWG As the Worm Turns.
2 - I didn't really try to shut people out by the "liars and marks" comment. Neither one is really that much of a slam anyway. Either you're lying/trolling, or you're a mark for that style. It's not 1999 anymore; mark is not an insult. I'm a mark for the things I like, and you are marks for what you like. Again, I reiterate, if you didn't like the tone, I'm sorry about that, it's just for effect, but the intent behind it is true. You deny selling is important if you're a troll (lying) or you like that kind of thing (mark). And while I look down on that style of wrestling, I don't look down on the people who like it, so let's all stop acting like that, because it's really bringing the thread down.
3 - I like Cena's work, but usually his comebacks, which are probably the worst part of his game by far, are preceded by amounts of selling that vary depending on who the guy is he's wrestling. For example, any time he wrestles CM Punk, he's generous with the amount of selling he does. It's also not surprising that those matches are among his best. With Taker, again, his best matches are stuff against guys like HBK, where he wrestles a match instead of puts on some sort of bullshit theater based around him walking around like some zombie.
Like I said on PizzaBodySlam's blog, I'm not asking guys to sell Flair chops like gunshots, but just act like it hurts. Eddie Kingston sells in his own way, but it's nowhere near the way Evan Bourne sells, and that's fine, but the point is while selling isn't something he does as good as I'd like him, King still sells before he goes on his adrenaline-driven comebacks.
Nothing anyone says is going to make me change my mind that selling is the most important part of any match. It's not the only thing that makes a match good. It's also usually not noticeable unless it's done REALLY well, like when Bourne takes a High Cross or the example Jason pointed out. But you know when it's really jarring? When it's not there. That's the shit I hate.